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Offline bombalurima

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 04:19:36 AM »
The romance and character development.

I was ticked off that Lin Beifong got her bending back so quickly and that her sacrifice was in vain. Tenzin's family's capture was a weak element to the plot that wasn't necessary whatsoever. And I would have loved for Lin to cope with the loss of her bending and become stronger because of it. I wanted her to teach Bolin everything she knew, in spite of the fact she couldn't bend. It would have made a remarkable arc for S2.

And I didn't like how Korra mastered the Avatar State so quickly. It just...bothered me because while she did work hard and certainly earned her airbending, I just think she wasn't ready to master the Avatar State.

Biggest one though:

KORRA AND ASAMI'S RELATIONSHIP

It could have been done so much better. I wanted to see them as best friends, but at the end of the series they don't even know each other well at all.
All of this.


Annddddddd this. And as much as I love me some Korrasami, I think the other things mentioned bothered me more. Just...everything felt like a cop-out. Lin gets her bending back without much reflection on what it meant to not have it at all. Korra masters airbending and achieves the Avatar State in no time. In ATLA, the characters had to learn from their mistakes in order to grow (both ability-wise and personality-wise, take your pick) and in LOK, there was very little of that. It's all the more disappointing because there was SO much to work with!

Also, Bolin kinda seemed to work...backwards in term of character development? He started out as a more vital member of the team, a guy who was worth something beyond a few funny one-liners, and then shortly after Korra picks Mako over him...it's like he was pushed into being solely the comic relief. This irks me to no end, it's a good part of why I don't want to bother rewatching the series.
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Offline Secrets

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 06:03:27 AM »
The romance and character development.

I was ticked off that Lin Beifong got her bending back so quickly and that her sacrifice was in vain. Tenzin's family's capture was a weak element to the plot that wasn't necessary whatsoever. And I would have loved for Lin to cope with the loss of her bending and become stronger because of it. I wanted her to teach Bolin everything she knew, in spite of the fact she couldn't bend. It would have made a remarkable arc for S2.

And I didn't like how Korra mastered the Avatar State so quickly. It just...bothered me because while she did work hard and certainly earned her airbending, I just think she wasn't ready to master the Avatar State.

Biggest one though:

KORRA AND ASAMI'S RELATIONSHIP

It could have been done so much better. I wanted to see them as best friends, but at the end of the series they don't even know each other well at all.
All of this.


Annddddddd this. And as much as I love me some Korrasami, I think the other things mentioned bothered me more. Just...everything felt like a cop-out. Lin gets her bending back without much reflection on what it meant to not have it at all. Korra masters airbending and achieves the Avatar State in no time. In ATLA, the characters had to learn from their mistakes in order to grow (both ability-wise and personality-wise, take your pick) and in LOK, there was very little of that. It's all the more disappointing because there was SO much to work with!

Also, Bolin kinda seemed to work...backwards in term of character development? He started out as a more vital member of the team, a guy who was worth something beyond a few funny one-liners, and then shortly after Korra picks Mako over him...it's like he was pushed into being solely the comic relief. This irks me to no end, it's a good part of why I don't want to bother rewatching the series.

I couldn't agree with you more, especially about Bo.

I don't want to rewatch the series....but I do appreciate the series and I loved watching it during its run. It's just not something I'd want to rewatch. At least now.

Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 06:23:49 AM »
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70 years is time enough for techniques to proliferate. I have seen enough capable non-benders in ATLA to not be surprised by the idea that a regular human being can still be effective vs. a bender.

There's no problem if dissemination of a particular skill (let's remember that said skill is highly specialized and difficult to learn) happens over the course of a few generations. There's a problem if no bender in the span of 70 years finds out a way to deal with it rather than being slow and useless in fights. You have organizations that are supposedly lauded for their elite combat skills and yet no one seems to know how to deal with a fighting style that's been around for the last few decades.

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Again, after nearly a century to develop anti-bender combat practices, this isn't that surprising to me. That a fanatical group can get a substantial group to become decently trained isn't unheard of either.

Name a single radical group that's "decently" trained in a real world environment that wasn't well trained because they got direct help from state governments (primarily I'm referring to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan). There haven't been many cases where radical groups gain any traction in a country with centralized governance unless said government is either brain dead or corrupt enough to endorse radical groups.

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Nor do I have any real issue with the idea of a talented engineer/businessman gone too far. Powerful industrialists with questionable motivations are all too real through IRL history, even with a slight exaggeration I don't have too hard a time suspending my disbelief.

Key word is "slight exaggeration". What are you defining as slight because it's clear to me that Hiroshi's abilities are far beyond just "exaggeration".

Any intelligent human being could take a look at Hiroshi's finances (and in a real business setting, his business should have sunk underneath his reinvestment of capital anyway) and realize that something was wrong. So it's either the government is incompetent or Hiroshi is (on top of being a cross between Ford and God of War) a secret spy uncanny at espionage too or no one bothered to look into what Hiroshi was doing with all his money even after he was captured.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:27:46 AM by Guyw1tn0nam3 »

Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 02:10:05 PM »
Oh dear, we've escalated into "post surgery".

There's no problem if dissemination of a particular skill (let's remember that said skill is highly specialized and difficult to learn) happens over the course of a few generations. There's a problem if no bender in the span of 70 years finds out a way to deal with it rather than being slow and useless in fights. You have organizations that are supposedly lauded for their elite combat skills and yet no one seems to know how to deal with a fighting style that's been around for the last few decades.

You sya "po-tay-to", I say "po-tah-to", you say slow and useless in those fights, I say...nope, didn't get that impression. I just saw good fighters getting beat by other good fighters. It happens.

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Name a single radical group that's "decently" trained in a real world environment that wasn't well trained because they got direct help from state governments (primarily I'm referring to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan). There haven't been many cases where radical groups gain any traction in a country with centralized governance unless said government is either brain dead or corrupt enough to endorse radical groups.
Without saying too many things that will get me in trouble outside of TKC, I'll just name the Irish Republican Army as an example that comes to mind. Arguably the Zetas and the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico as well.

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Key word is "slight exaggeration". What are you defining as slight because it's clear to me that Hiroshi's abilities are far beyond just "exaggeration".

Any intelligent human being could take a look at Hiroshi's finances (and in a real business setting, his business should have sunk underneath his reinvestment of capital anyway) and realize that something was wrong. So it's either the government is incompetent or Hiroshi is (on top of being a cross between Ford and God of War) a secret spy uncanny at espionage too or no one bothered to look into what Hiroshi was doing with all his money even after he was captured.
You say "to-may-to", I say "to-mah-to", you say Hiroshi's operation is completely unbelievable for an "intelligent human being", I say it's believable in principle, and turned up in severity for the purposes of telling a fantasy story. Crazy things tend to happen in such tales. Even if the business aspect is unrealistic (I'll freely admit I'm not educated in such a topic), I din't find it distracting or detracting form the story in the slightest.

What we have here is a fundamentally different interpretation of the data, plain and simple. You draw one thing from looking at the squiggles, and I'm drawing another thing. 'Tis what 'tis.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 02:55:30 PM by Spruce »
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Offline FengLi

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 03:24:31 PM »
I don't see why anyone would be suspicious of Hiroshi. It seems that he owns his company outright, so he doesn't have to disclose its finances. Second of all, his customers are benders as well as nonbenders, so there wouldn't be any reason for him to join the equalists without knowing his personal vendetta against the street rats who killed his wife.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 03:30:55 PM by FengLi »
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Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2013, 03:58:51 AM »
@Feng Li

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I don't see why anyone would be suspicious of Hiroshi.

We can assume that Hiroshi probably used up a significant portion of his personal treasury to finance the Equalist campaign. If so, it should have been obvious that Hiroshi was either reinvesting in failing research & development projects or someone would have noticed that maybe there were suspicious people building air bases just outside of Republic City.

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It seems that he owns his company outright, so he doesn't have to disclose its finances.

Except when you have secret labs, thousands of torpedoes, and dozens of airships, you'd expect capable human beings who just arrested this guy who made platinum robots might notice that something else was going on.

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Second of all, his customers are benders as well as nonbenders, so there wouldn't be any reason for him to join the equalists without knowing his personal vendetta against the street rats who killed his wife.

He's a rich man who lost his wife. It's going to be a public news story, and if not, the press is just an awful press who doesn't know a good story when they see one.

@Spruce

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You sya "po-tay-to", I say "po-tah-to", you say slow and useless in those fights, I say...nope, didn't get that impression. I just saw good fighters getting beat by other good fighters. It happens.

I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that metalbenders were ever "good fighters" seeing as how the only screen time of legitimate fighting they had was when they took down a bunch of street rats and allowed Korra to wreck half the city before capturing her. The only baseline barometer of the strength of metalbenders is Lin, and even she shows that she's incapable of fighting Equalists without bending, which is sad because you'd think that people would learned from the likes of Zuko and learn how to fight against nonbenders without bending because there are times when it's disadvantageous to use bending.

Clearly there is are people in this world that learned important historical lessons and put them to heart, and then you have other people.

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Without saying too many things that will get me in trouble outside of TKC, I'll just name the Irish Republican Army as an example that comes to mind. Arguably the Zetas and the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico as well.

So basically you're citing examples of radical groups that can put up decent fights again their incompetent governments. I think that proves my point.

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You say "to-may-to", I say "to-mah-to", you say Hiroshi's operation is completely unbelievable for an "intelligent human being", I say it's believable in principle, and turned up in severity for the purposes of telling a fantasy story. Crazy things tend to happen in such tales. Even if the business aspect is unrealistic (I'll freely admit I'm not educated in such a topic), I din't find it distracting or detracting form the story in the slightest.

What we have here is a fundamentally different interpretation of the data, plain and simple. You draw one thing from looking at the squiggles, and I'm drawing another thing. 'Tis what 'tis.

What data, and how is it believable "in principle?" Actually, scratch that, and first explain what you mean by "in principle" because I didn't get that part.

Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2013, 07:03:07 AM »
I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that metalbenders were ever "good fighters" seeing as how the only screen time of legitimate fighting they had was when they took down a bunch of street rats and allowed Korra to wreck half the city before capturing her.
Hm. That's funny, I can see it. Just based on what I observed from just watching them fight, they sure don't seem like buffoons to me. But hey, that's just me and my interpretation of what my eyes saw. Value that at whatever you want, honestly. It's just my two cents.

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So basically you're citing examples of radical groups that can put up decent fights again their incompetent governments. I think that proves my point.
Nope, just naming groups that achieved a level of competency without a strong government backing. The competency of their opponents and the relative detraction it takes form the overall Korra storyline is another ball of wax, one best debated in other threads you've had a lively time with that I have no interest in participating in. I'm just here to say "yeah, I think the stronger henchmen were a plus" on their own independent merits in a vacuum.

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What data, and how is it believable "in principle?" Actually, scratch that, and first explain what you mean by "in principle" because I didn't get that part.
I mean "in principle" with regards to the idea that an enterprising and talented inventor/businessman could accrue enough capital to bankroll the operation he did, under the radar. I mean "data" simply in terms of what we both observed from canon material. Clearly, we are seeing two different stories with two vastly different justifications. Both are thought out from two significantly different ways of thinking, and both are going to remain diametrically opposed, and that's fine by me.
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Offline Blu

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2013, 08:37:39 AM »
I liked the power of the Equalists, I thought the first episode showcased that the metalbenders were pretty good at their jobs, and I thought Hiroshi's involvement in the second half of the season was mostly pretty silly.

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2013, 11:07:05 AM »
The biggest thing that I want it to be done better is Lin's lose of bending power. I want to see her reaction more, her cope, but.....there was nothing.

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Offline Av

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2013, 03:57:04 PM »
I was under the impression that Hiroshi has factories around the Earth Kingdom, not just in Republic City. I got the idea that Republic City was just his headquarters, his main base, and he had other stations scattered about that worked on their own, with his management.

I also got to thinking that maybe the war-machines weren't actually that secretive. I wanted to assume that he was sinking his teeth into both worlds, promising to make machinery for the government, and he giving the technology to the Equalists instead.

I don't think he had to finance it out of his own pocket, off the record. He could likely do it on the company dollar. Or, going with the above theory, on the government's dollar. And if the Avatar thinks he might be working for the Equalists, well, you know he's just making the technology for you... but... What if he's playing you and making you pay for it? I'd want to make sure. So they checked. A small group found it. Hiroshi had to keep them quiet.
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Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2013, 04:50:59 PM »
@Spruce
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Hm. That's funny, I can see it. Just based on what I observed from just watching them fight, they sure don't seem like buffoons to me. But hey, that's just me and my interpretation of what my eyes saw. Value that at whatever you want, honestly. It's just my two cents.

Right but you only saw them fight once. Every other time was just them getting pit against insurmountable (where did it come from) odds and losing pitifully. There was no fair contest.

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Nope, just naming groups that achieved a level of competency without a strong government backing. The competency of their opponents and the relative detraction it takes form the overall Korra storyline is another ball of wax, one best debated in other threads you've had a lively time with that I have no interest in participating in. I'm just here to say "yeah, I think the stronger henchmen were a plus" on their own independent merits in a vacuum.

Gauging the quality of opponents is integral to gauging personal skill. If I go around beating up scrubs in tennis and think I'm a big shot, that's completely different than if I go and actually knock out ranked players.

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I mean "in principle" with regards to the idea that an enterprising and talented inventor/businessman could accrue enough capital to bankroll the operation he did, under the radar. I mean "data" simply in terms of what we both observed from canon material. Clearly, we are seeing two different stories with two vastly different justifications. Both are thought out from two significantly different ways of thinking, and both are going to remain diametrically opposed, and that's fine by me.

So you think there are places in Republic City to hide three dozen+ airships, dozens of airplanes, lay mines in the harbor of Republic City (while the pitifully tactically unaware General Iroh runs into them even though he probably has radar)? Cool, do you think anyone could do it in New York City? Hide them in the subways maybe?


@Moby:
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I liked the power of the Equalists, I thought the first episode showcased that the metalbenders were pretty good at their jobs, and I thought Hiroshi's involvement in the second half of the season was mostly pretty silly.

I'm fine with them being powerful. My point is on Hiroshi was overpowered and as a result of negligence and lack of strategic thinking, good metalbenders got outclassed because they didn't think.

I'm willing to suspend all my disbelief to fiat that all of this was possible. I'm just irked when people think that there was some kind of strategic brilliance at play here.

@Av:
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I was under the impression that Hiroshi has factories around the Earth Kingdom, not just in Republic City. I got the idea that Republic City was just his headquarters, his main base, and he had other stations scattered about that worked on their own, with his management.

His main factory was in Republic City. Not only that, but if you built a bunch of airships outside of Republic City, you'd have to import them in anyway, unless you're under the impression that Equalists just left Republic City, went to some deserted place that nobody knows about, picked up the airships there, and then flew back to Republic City.

I guess that's fine. There's nothing particularly wrong with that.

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I also got to thinking that maybe the war-machines weren't actually that secretive. I wanted to assume that he was sinking his teeth into both worlds, promising to make machinery for the government, and he giving the technology to the Equalists instead.

Then, again, the government was dumb for knowing that Hiroshi was conspiring with the Equalists (episode 7) and not freezing all of his assets and operations afterwards. I mean, the guy came up with a direct counter to the world's best police force and nobody seems to give a second thought to it. They're just like "Oh yeah, they exist, now let's move on."

At the same time, if Hiroshi was supplying the government with tech, nobody on the "good" side knew how to use it as well as the Equalists did. In other words, I think the show functions fine, I just think anyone calling the Equalists masterminds of strategy are really kidding themselves here. It's kind of like how people call Lelouche from Code Geass a god of strategy or that one dude from Death Note a god of strategy when either they had completely overpowered abilities or their opponents just didn't think for themselves.

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I don't think he had to finance it out of his own pocket, off the record. He could likely do it on the company dollar. Or, going with the above theory, on the government's dollar. And if the Avatar thinks he might be working for the Equalists, well, you know he's just making the technology for you... but... What if he's playing you and making you pay for it? I'd want to make sure. So they checked. A small group found it. Hiroshi had to keep them quiet.

I mean, he's a mogul so the company dollar is his own pocket, and again, this is basic finance. If you reinvest all of your company dollars into illegal things and get 0 return out of it (because you're not selling it to anyone...unless Amon is also a super rich mogul himself...in which case I'm just going to give up), it's going to show in your earnings reports. It's going to show somewhere in your personal finances.

Even if he just hired a bunch of Equalist accountants and kept it all away from the public, at the very least, people should have been following the money after they stopped Hiroshi. But nope, the government becomes incapacitated by Tarrlok, who I guess you could say is to blame for all the government's incompetence because he's pretty incapable of anything useful himself.


Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2013, 05:13:27 PM »
Right but you only saw them fight once. Every other time was just them getting pit against insurmountable (where did it come from) odds and losing pitifully. There was no fair contest.
Saw enough to find the police force and the main characters credible. That's good enough for me. If it isn't for you, I can't do nothin' for ya man.

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Gauging the quality of opponents is integral to gauging personal skill. If I go around beating up scrubs in tennis and think I'm a big shot, that's completely different than if I go and actually knock out ranked players.
It's too small a sample size either way. I don't have a long history of the peacekeeping forces succeeding, so it's hard for me to pony up enough hard screencaps to satisfy your own desires. But on the flip side, I think you're being rather hasty in judging them as totally incompetent from losing ground on this particular incident and draw as many conclusions as you are. If anything, one could do the sam thing using an assumption that they've kept the peace for quite awhile up to that point, enough to establish a reputation.

But I'm not interested in that. I think it's too questionable to make this sort of analysis or critique based on too little to go off of, just watching the fights is the only real data I'm interested in personally.

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So you think there are places in Republic City to hide three dozen+ airships, dozens of airplanes, lay mines in the harbor of Republic City (while the pitifully tactically unaware General Iroh runs into them even though he probably has radar)? Cool, do you think anyone could do it in New York City? Hide them in the subways maybe?

I think your question is irrelevant, it's a fantasy show and the architecture and environment of which the city resides could be anything to support such an operation. It's not as though ATLA exactly obeyed real world physics and engineering to the letter either, but there's only so much I care about that in a show like this. The Iroh part and the sarcasm are definitely irrelevant (that's quite a stretch to make about the radar too, but I digress).

In any case, my original point in this thread was about the overall power of the lower level combatants, not the realism of Hiroshi's logistics or strategic ability (or lack thereof). It's semi-related at best due to his outfitting them, but if you really want to debate it and these other aspects of TLK's relative worth I'm sure you can find a more willing participant.
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Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2013, 05:25:49 PM »
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It's too small a sample size either way. I don't have a long history of the peacekeeping forces succeeding, so it's hard for me to pony up enough hard screencaps to satisfy your own desires.

Exactly.

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But on the flip side, I think you're being rather hasty in judging them as totally incompetent from losing ground on this particular incident and draw as many conclusions as you are. If anything, one could do the sam thing using an assumption that they've kept the peace for quite awhile up to that point, enough to establish a reputation.

But I'm not interested in that. I think it's too questionable to make this sort of analysis or critique based on too little to go off of, just watching the fights is the only real data I'm interested in personally.

How am I being "hasty?" It feels to me that Republic City has always been a failure at establishing a good multicultural society, as shown in every flashback, sob story we get in the series. Republic City has always been a terrible establishment kept together by good leadership. It's when terrible leaders who don't know what they're doing comes up when things really hit the fan.

They basically spelled out in the entirety of the show (AKA it was Bryke's intention) to show us that the government of Republic City was an utter farce.

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I think your question is irrelevant, it's a fantasy show and the architecture and environment of which the city resides could be anything to support such an operation. It's not as though ATLA exactly obeyed real world physics and engineering to the letter either, but there's only so much I care about that in a show like this.

How is it irrelevant? I think you're missing the point if you think I'm trying to say that the show was way too unrealistic. My only problem is when people think that the Equalists have any kind of legitimacy as a "strategic" and "intelligent opponent", and I'm of the opinion that it's kind of silly to think that way.

They're strong adversaries, but I don't understand it when people laud their accomplishments the way they do.

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The Iroh part and the sarcasm are definitely irrelevant (that's quite a stretch to make about the radar too, but I digress).

Finale had radar + radio communication. It's not a stretch. It's in the show. If you have explosives, airplanes, and random mecha that look like they came out of some third rate anime production, then I don't see why radar is so much of a stretch. It's not a complicated idea to grasp if you can get the above inventions.

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In any case, my original point in this thread was about the overall power of the lower level combatants, not the realism of Hiroshi's logistics or strategic ability (or lack thereof). It's semi-related at best due to his outfitting them, but if you really want to debate it and these other aspects of TLK's relative worth I'm sure you can find a more willing participant.

Right, and I think it's clear that the only thing you can say about the combatants is that they're good fighters. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that they have no thinking to back up their raw skills, which is why the Equalists win so often.

Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2013, 07:07:16 PM »
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It's too small a sample size either way. I don't have a long history of the peacekeeping forces succeeding, so it's hard for me to pony up enough hard screencaps to satisfy your own desires.

Exactly.
Okay...but you seem to think there is enough to prove your own point. I find that highly questionable, but I'll leave it at that.

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How am I being "hasty?" It feels to me that Republic City has always been a failure at establishing a good multicultural society, as shown in every flashback, sob story we get in the series. Republic City has always been a terrible establishment kept together by good leadership. It's when terrible leaders who don't know what they're doing comes up when things really hit the fan.

They basically spelled out in the entirety of the show (AKA it was Bryke's intention) to show us that the government of Republic City was an utter farce.

Your haste comes from what I just pointed out, in that you're drawing an interpretation with just as little as someone else who might disagree. If that's your interpretation, by all means roll with it. I just don't buy it all the way through.

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How is it irrelevant? I think you're missing the point if you think I'm trying to say that the show was way too unrealistic. My only problem is when people think that the Equalists have any kind of legitimacy as a "strategic" and "intelligent opponent", and I'm of the opinion that it's kind of silly to think that way.

They're strong adversaries, but I don't understand it when people laud their accomplishments the way they do.
Sure. That's why it's irrelevant. I had no intention of commenting on their strategy or intelligence, which is why I never made any mention of it until you pulled it into the conversation. Go back to my original post on the topic:
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Moving on, I think Amon and his men were way too powerful.

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I actually liked that, gave them more underlying credibility as a threat. If I have zero concern for my heroes every time they get jumped by an ambush because only the Big Bad is worth a snot, I'm liable to start emotionally sleepwalking through the action parts.
I'm talking about them being "strong adversaries", not brilliant strategists.  I understand you are very passionate about your criticism of TLK, but you're picking a fight that wasn't there in this case.

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Finale had radar + radio communication. It's not a stretch. It's in the show. If you have explosives, airplanes, and random mecha that look like they came out of some third rate anime production, then I don't see why radar is so much of a stretch. It's not a complicated idea to grasp if you can get the above inventions.
First, let's establish that underwater moine detection requires sonar technology, not radar.

Second, even with advanced sonar technology underwater mine detection is complicated. Just like with radar, it's a cat and mouse game of detection and deception. It's not magic. It's a very difficult war fighting problem that still demands a great deal of energy and resources even today, with modern technology. Developing mines capable of deceiving what is at best early sonar technology, given Hiroshi's abilities and resources, is not that unbelievable to me.

Iroh might have made a tactical error, or he might just not have had the necessary intel. Either way, to assume his incompetence and try to construct an argument based on conjecture (like the allegedly failed use of radar/sonar) is no more credible than assuming brilliance and fabricating a similar argument in support. Thereís no strong case either way. At the end of the day, I just donít find this discussion about how dumb or smart these characters are to be a worthwhile debate until we see more in Season 2.

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Right, and I think it's clear that the only thing you can say about the combatants is that they're good fighters. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that they have no thinking to back up their raw skills, which is why the Equalists win so often.
Like I said, the first part is all I was trying to talk about in the first place. If you want to discuss the rest, I invite you to find someone who cares as much as you do.
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Offline NinjaKitty

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2013, 11:45:34 PM »
The biggest thing that I want it to be done better is Lin's lose of bending power. I want to see her reaction more, her cope, but.....there was nothing.

Def this. Things just felt a little too rushed, despite the fact that there's only so many episodes.

Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 12:23:50 AM »
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Your haste comes from what I just pointed out, in that you're drawing an interpretation with just as little as someone else who might disagree. If that's your interpretation, by all means roll with it. I just don't buy it all the way through.

Don't blame poor construction of story on me.

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I'm talking about them being "strong adversaries", not brilliant strategists.  I understand you are very passionate about your criticism of TLK, but you're picking a fight that wasn't there in this case.

Your quote talks about how they have "credibility" as strong adversaries. I'm debating that they don't have credibility as strong adversaries. They may be strong fighters, but not only does the term adversary come with a completely different implication, but people give them too much credit for their accolades and they don't deserve them.

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First, let's establish that underwater moine detection requires sonar technology, not radar.

Fair enough.

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Second, even with advanced sonar technology underwater mine detection is complicated. Just like with radar, it's a cat and mouse game of detection and deception. It's not magic. It's a very difficult war fighting problem that still demands a great deal of energy and resources even today, with modern technology. Developing mines capable of deceiving what is at best early sonar technology, given Hiroshi's abilities and resources, is not that unbelievable to me.

So is developing mines during ATLA, so I'm not particularly against the idea.

The only problem is when people see it and think Amon's pulled off something spectacular, when it was more or less General Iroh's fault for poor battle strategy and trying to gung ho his way into the harbor.

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Iroh might have made a tactical error, or he might just not have had the necessary intel. Either way, to assume his incompetence and try to construct an argument based on conjecture (like the allegedly failed use of radar/sonar) is no more credible than assuming brilliance and fabricating a similar argument in support. Thereís no strong case either way. At the end of the day, I just donít find this discussion about how dumb or smart these characters are to be a worthwhile debate until we see more in Season 2.

Again, don't blame story context on me. First impressions are important, and if the impression is that Iroh probably deserves  severe punishment for basically getting his fleet (and probably a good portion of his men) captured/killed, I don't understand how that's an assumption. It's just pure objective fact, and there's no way around it.

If you want me to treat, as I usually have, Korra as some fun show where I can turn my brain off and still enjoy, then by all means I will go back to doing so, but drawing interpretations based on pretty obvious context clues is what we do as an audience.

It's unreasonable for you to say that you can easily generate an argument in the other direction when there haven't been any counterexamples that disproves the fact that certain "good" guys in the show made grave tactical errors, regardless of the lack of information or technology. I can grant that maybe Iroh didn't have the technology to find Hiroshi's minefield, but that doesn't solve a flurry of other strategic missteps he's had, such as continuing to try to pursue passed it and losing all of his men in the process.

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Like I said, the first part is all I was trying to talk about in the first place. If you want to discuss the rest, I invite you to find someone who cares as much as you do.

I'm so sorry we talk about things you don't want to, but if you really hated this discussion so much, you could have just stopped talking.

Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 02:12:56 AM »
Don't blame poor construction of story on me.
This statement doesn't make sense to me, so I'll move on.

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Your quote talks about how they have "credibility" as strong adversaries. I'm debating that they don't have credibility as strong adversaries. They may be strong fighters, but not only does the term adversary come with a completely different implication, but people give them too much credit for their accolades and they don't deserve them.
I'll say this again: I'm not debating accolades, and your personal defintion of what "adversaries" implies is just a difference in semantics. I'm claiming that it benefits the show to have enemies that the viewer can take seriously as threats in a fight scene. That's all. You are free to take up your issues with the rest of Korra's storytelling with someone who has a strong opinion on it like you do. I'm just trying to clarify my own particular point.

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So is developing mines during ATLA, so I'm not particularly against the idea.

The only problem is when people see it and think Amon's pulled off something spectacular, when it was more or less General Iroh's fault for poor battle strategy and trying to gung ho his way into the harbor.
And if I thought Amon did that, I'd say so. But your eagerness to intellectually pound someone who does is misguided, in this case.

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Again, don't blame story context on me. First impressions are important, and if the impression is that Iroh probably deserves  severe punishment for basically getting his fleet (and probably a good portion of his men) captured/killed, I don't understand how that's an assumption. It's just pure objective fact, and there's no way around it.
I do think you're overthinking this, trying to indite Iroh and his command decisions, so I'm inclined to drop this part of the discussion entirely.

But my interest is piqued enough to say this much: If you have the credentials and background to comment on naval strategy, or military command in general, and you can somehow dig up canon outlining the intelligence Iroh had on the enemy prior to the battle with which to form a battle plan, then by all means make this background known and proceed to comment. If not, I think you're stretching more than a little bit.

Iroh would absolutely be held accountable for the loss of his troops, as any commander would. However, to claim those casualties were due to such an egregious tactical blunder and definitively not due to the enemy's own countermeasures is firmly rooted in opinion and conjecture. I don't think we have enough information to fairly lay down a firm opinion on the matter, but that's just me. I do want to reiterate that impressions are inherently subjective, not objective, by definition.

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If you want me to treat, as I usually have, Korra as some fun show where I can turn my brain off and still enjoy, then by all means I will go back to doing so, but drawing interpretations based on pretty obvious context clues is what we do as an audience.
I just want you to treat interpretations as interpretations, meaning they can and often will differ. You tend to pass them off as facts, from what I've observed. That's unbecoming of any debater.

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It's unreasonable for you to say that you can easily generate an argument in the other direction when there haven't been any counterexamples that disproves the fact that certain "good" guys in the show made grave tactical errors, regardless of the lack of information or technology. I can grant that maybe Iroh didn't have the technology to find Hiroshi's minefield, but that doesn't solve a flurry of other strategic missteps he's had, such as continuing to try to pursue passed it and losing all of his men in the process.
It's as reasonable as you claiming you can craft your own particular argument. The majority of your examples are conjecture loaded on top of observations. I've thought about them, and I just don't think your conjectures are as solid as you do, so I don't buy your argument. And if I wanted to argue strongly for the flip side of it, I'd have to do the same thing. The point is, it's just not a topic of discussion where anyone can really speak definitively or in absolutes.

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I'm so sorry we talk about things you don't want to, but if you really hated this discussion so much, you could have just stopped talking.
Oh, no need to apologize. You're free to discuss this with the rest of the thread and forum, in fact I encourage it (having said my two cents on the degree to which you can really debate it at all in the first place, of course). I just don't want you to waste your time arguing with me when I'm clearly "not the droids you're looking for", in terms of someone to take to task on disagreeing with you (which again, I think that will be hard to do legitimately, but I digress).

But besides that, I can't well stop talking when my actual argument is being viewed erroneously. Had to make sure that's good and clear for everybody (although you did get me talking about Iroh a bit, no one to blame but myself for taking that bait, harumph).
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Offline FengLi

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 02:27:03 AM »
Well, I think that Iroh just f***ed up big time, lets leave it at that. Just look at how many ships and men he lost compared to the Equalists; it's like pearl harbor in the Avatar world and I wouldn't be surprised if he was demoted or resigned in shame.

Also, the metalbending cops need to stop wearing fully exposed metal armor when every other firebender and almost every equalist can summon giant tendrils of lightning at whim. Why not have insulated metal armor or even ceramic armor? 
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Offline Guyw1tn0nam3

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 02:39:46 AM »
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This statement doesn't make sense to me, so I'll move on.

As in don't blame what the story put forth as fact on me. Some facts form contradictions when presented in the show, and I use those to present an argument.

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I'll say this again: I'm not debating accolades, and your personal defintion of what "adversaries" implies is just a difference in semantics. I'm claiming that it benefits the show to have enemies that the viewer can take seriously as threats in a fight scene. That's all. You are free to take up your issues with the rest of Korra's storytelling with someone who has a strong opinion on it like you do. I'm just trying to clarify my own particular point.

You argued that they were "credible" opponents which is different from saying someone is good in a fight. I'd agree with you on the second one but contest that they're not "credible" opponents.

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And if I thought Amon did that, I'd say so. But your eagerness to intellectually pound someone who does is misguided, in this case.

I never targeted you specifically, nor am I very eager to "intellectually" pound anyone.

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I do think you're overthinking this, trying to indite Iroh and his command decisions, so I'm inclined to drop this part of the discussion entirely.

But my interest is piqued enough to say this much: If you have the credentials and background to comment on naval strategy, or military command in general, and you can somehow dig up canon outlining the intelligence Iroh had on the enemy prior to the battle with which to form a battle plan, then by all means make this background known and proceed to comment. If not, I think you're stretching more than a little bit.

I read Sun Tzu's art of war. :P

But jokes aside, Iroh's actions got his men/ships/fleet/whatever completely trashed. Even if we assume that he's a "competent general", the fact that he lost everyone but himself (practically) is enough to say that he did an awful job, as Feng Li pointed out.

Tenzin also sent out a distress signal, so already, Iroh knows that something is powerful enough to overcome the most powerful police force in the world, the Metalbenders.

There's also this thing called reconnaissance where you send scouting parties to see what's going on before you charge into the harbor guns blazing. Patience is a virtue, and I think that still applies on the battlefield, especially in a case where you have no idea what you're dealing with.

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Iroh would absolutely be held accountable for the loss of his troops, as any commander would. However, to claim those casualties were due to such an egregious tactical blunder and definitively not due to the enemy's own countermeasures is firmly rooted in opinion and conjecture. I don't think we have enough information to fairly lay down a firm opinion on the matter, but that's just me. I do want to reiterate that impressions are inherently subjective, not objective, by definition.

So take your pick, it's either Hiroshi Sato came out of nowhere with 50 different new inventions revealed in one episode (which, even if believable, isn't the best way to write a story), or it's Iroh messed up severely in handling a massive fleet of soldiers .

Either one, I'm not satisfied with.

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I just want you to treat interpretations as interpretations, meaning they can and often will differ. You tend to pass them off as facts, from what I've observed. That's unbecoming of any debater.

Which ones have I passed off as facts? Just because I say "everyone on the 'good' side doesn't use their heads" doesn't mean I think they're facts. I think I've made it plenty clear to people that I don't think my opinion should be well regarded in the slightest and people are well open to disagree with me whenever they choose to.

In other words, no, I'm not passing them off as facts. I'm just debating them as if I believed my position to be correct, which is what a debater should do rather than riddling his/her case with disclaimers.

Edit: Also, Iroh needing punishment is fact. No matter how good a track record you have, whether it be a general, football player, etc. etc., if you screw up and end up costing games and costing lives, that's not something you can debate about. You're going to receive punishment. How severe? I don't know, but I'd expect it'd be kind of serious. 

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It's as reasonable as you claiming you can craft your own particular argument. The majority of your examples are conjecture loaded on top of observations. I've thought about them, and I just don't think your conjectures are as solid as you do, so I don't buy your argument. And if I wanted to argue strongly for the flip side of it, I'd have to do the same thing. The point is, it's just not a topic of discussion where anyone can really speak definitively or in absolutes.

Again, I haven't talked in absolutes. I provide solid examples and open up the floor for anyone who bothers to respond to me (which at this point, you're the only one entertaining me right now -3- ) and there have either been none, and the ones that do come up I've regarded as holes in my argument (AKA Sonar as just one example) or I've at least tried to debate them with merit.

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Oh, no need to apologize. You're free to discuss this with the rest of the thread and forum, in fact I encourage it (having said my two cents on the degree to which you can really debate it at all in the first place, of course). I just don't want you to waste your time arguing with me when I'm clearly "not the droids you're looking for", in terms of someone to take to task on disagreeing with you (which again, I think that will be hard to do legitimately, but I digress).

When you're arguing anything in literature/media there's no possible way to "legitimately" argue based on your parameters unless we talk about absolutes like Korra is a girl and Mako is a boy. The point is I don't think there's enough discussion and the way I generate discussion is by throwing out random out there comments and hope people start talking more.

Some people I know on this forum already realize that I don't believe half the stuff that I'm talking about, and half the stuff that I type out are things that I find at least five different counterexamples to before I post them on the board, so I know that they're not solid cases.

I just want people to at least bring up their own opinion because I feel like there's a lot of valuable stuff to hear, but a lot of is crowded out by other things like some kind of unexplained tentativeness to talk about anything really in depth.

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But besides that, I can't well stop talking when my actual argument is being viewed erroneously. Had to make sure that's good and clear for everybody (although you did get me talking about Iroh a bit, no one to blame but myself for taking that bait, harumph).

If I thought your argument was erroneous, I wouldn't have put the effort in to reply to you, so take that as a "I don't think your arguments are erroneous" comment.

Well, I think that Iroh just f***ed up big time, lets leave it at that. Just look at how many ships and men he lost compared to the Equalists; it's like pearl harbor in the Avatar world and I wouldn't be surprised if he was demoted or resigned in shame.

Also, the metalbending cops need to stop wearing fully exposed metal armor when every other firebender and almost every equalist can summon giant tendrils of lightning at whim. Why not have insulated metal armor or even ceramic armor? 

I agree. It's one of the basis for my arguments. I think Equalists are cool and all, but there's a second element to accepting them as being badass. It's like watching Code Geass and marveling at how cool the strategy of the main character is and then realize he's using 17th century military tactics against a bunch of angry primates and that's the only real reason he's winning.

It looks cool, it's fun to watch, and in some ways it shows competence, but not to the extent of showing me that he's really something that's worth saying "wow, now that's a solid villain/protagonist/etc."
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:52:17 AM by Guyw1tn0nam3 »

Offline Spruce

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Re: What Could've Been Done Better?
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 03:21:38 AM »

As in don't blame what the story put forth as fact on me. Some facts form contradictions when presented in the show, and I use those to present an argument.
And I'll say again, I think you're adding on conjecture to the facts we have available, and still calling it a "fact".

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You argued that they were "credible" opponents which is different from saying someone is good in a fight. I'd agree with you on the second one but contest that they're not "credible" opponents.
No, I argued that the entire time. I just failed to communicate it, it would seem.

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I read Sun Tzu's art of war. :P

But jokes aside, Iroh's actions got his men/ships/fleet/whatever completely trashed. Even if we assume that he's a "competent general", the fact that he lost everyone but himself (practically) is enough to say that he did an awful job, as Feng Li pointed out.

Tenzin also sent out a distress signal, so already, Iroh knows that something is powerful enough to overcome the most powerful police force in the world, the Metalbenders.

There's also this thing called reconnaissance where you send scouting parties to see what's going on before you charge into the harbor guns blazing. Patience is a virtue, and I think that still applies on the battlefield, especially in a case where you have no idea what you're dealing with.
Yes, I'm well aware of all of these things. I actually have some background, but it would be best if I didn't speak further on it. But again, we don't know for certain what Intelligence-Surveillance-Reconnaissance gathering he may have used. We don't know if he was fed bad intel. We don't know his technology failed him, if his sensors were spoofed, etc. There's too much I don't know before I'm willing to cast judgement on what exactly his error was, and how severe.

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So take your pick, it's either Hiroshi Sato came out of nowhere with 50 different new inventions revealed in one episode (which, even if believable, isn't the best way to write a story), or it's Iroh messed up severely in handling a massive fleet of soldiers .

Either one, I'm not satisfied with.
Again, you act as though this is a black and white situation. I don't think it's that simple. We'll have to leave it at that, because I'm never going to get the additional information I'd want first.

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Which ones have I passed off as facts? Just because I say "everyone on the 'good' side doesn't use their heads" doesn't mean I think they're facts. I think I've made it plenty clear to people that I don't think my opinion should be well regarded in the slightest and people are well open to disagree with me whenever they choose to.

In other words, no, I'm not passing them off as facts. I'm just debating them as if I believed my position to be correct, which is what a debater should do rather than riddling his/her case with disclaimers.
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Again, I haven't talked in absolutes.
Bold added by me, to illustrate terms and wording that indicate absoluteness and belief that they are fact.
The assumption we have to draw is that there are thousands of people who are as capable as Ty Lee on the opposition and Hiroshi Sato is Henry Ford/the Wright Brothers/God of War rolled into one, and I don't like any of these assumptions.
Every other time was just them getting pit against insurmountable (where did it come from) odds and losing pitifully. There was no fair contest.
They basically spelled out in the entirety of the show (AKA it was Bryke's intention) to show us that the government of Republic City was an utter farce.

No, you have not made your intent and tone clear. And speaking in certainties about debatable points is not indicative of a good debater. A good (as in, professional) debater makes assessments, makes those assessments clear, makes the degree of confidence in the validity of those statements clear, and communicates it under no uncertain terms ("mean what you say, say what you mean"). Sometimes this means taking your foot off the gas with how strongly you want to present those assessments. Sometimes, it means recognizing that they point you want to debate isn't well suited yet for making a strong argument without more information, hence the need to use discretion and restraint. It pays dividends, in the end, in terms of conveying your point successfully.

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I provide solid examples and open up the floor for anyone who bothers to respond to me (which at this point, you're the only one entertaining me right now -3- ) and there have either been none, and the ones that do come up I've regarded as holes in my argument (AKA Sonar as just one example) or I've at least tried to debate them with merit.
Yeah, I just don't think your examples are as solid as you think. That tends to be off-putting for potential debate partners. This may explain the lack of participation other than myself, but I can't officially speak for anyone but myself.
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When you're arguing anything in literature/media there's no possible way to "legitimately" argue based on your parameters unless we talk about absolutes like Korra is a girl and Mako is a boy. The point is I don't think there's enough discussion and the way I generate discussion is by throwing out random out there comments and hope people start talking more.

Some people I know on this forum already realize that I don't believe half the stuff that I'm talking about, and half the stuff that I type out are things that I find at least five different counterexamples to before I post them on the board, so I know that they're not solid cases.

I just want people to at least bring up their own opinion because I feel like there's a lot of valuable stuff to hear, but a lot of is crowded out by other things like some kind of unexplained tentativeness to talk about anything really in depth.
There's a right way to discuss and debate things like this, that effectively communicates even to those who disagree with you, and which also encourages others to join in...and there's a wrong way. There's probably several right ways, and many more wrong ways. This is what I mean by "legitimate". Personally, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot with your current practices. They seem to me to be more like "picking a fight" than fostering a good environment for respectful debate.

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If I thought your argument was erroneous, I wouldn't have put the effort in to reply to you, so take that as a "I don't think your arguments are erroneous" comment.
No, but you completely misinterpreted my original point. I have my theories as to why and how, but ultimately it comes on me as a failure to communicate. The point is finished now, we appear to agree on the original one (in as much as I meant to say, anyway).
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